There would be a certain irony if Joseph Alois Ratzinger, the 265th "pope", was arrested, charged, convicted, and punished in controversial circumstances.
For after all, that is what supposedly happened to Jesus of Nazereth, and so led to the various religious movements which we now generally call "Christianity".
Such an irony would in some ways be pleasing, for the Roman Catholic church has long sought arrogantly to put themselves beyond the reach of the civil authorities.
In principle, watching the pope do the "perp walk" - perhaps handcuffed to some surly female police officer - would be satisfying to those, like me, of a strong atheist and anti-clerical temperament.
However, such fantasies must yield to the fundamental liberal requirements of due process and the rule of law.
Of course, Ratzinger should not be immune from arrest or charge, prosecution or punishment, just because he is the pope; but he also should not arrested or charged, prosecuted or punished, just because he is the pope.
A proper secular and liberal approach would be to disregard all the paraphernalia of his papal office.
Instead, it would be to treat Ratzinger simply as any other potential suspect in these sordid circumstances: a perhaps foolish or culpable old man - amongst others - who may - or may not - have been complicit in either horrendous sexual abuse against children or the cover-ups afterwards.
Any arrest would then be because that there was evidence that he had committed an identifiable criminal offence.
It should not be the case that, for vague and well-meaning reasons, we have deemed that somehow he should be arrested or put on trial anyway.
For, unless there is evidence in respect of a specific offence, one would simply be placing Joseph Ratzinger in the place of Josef K.
And so this is where I part company with Richard Dawkins, who has recently stated:
"Why is anyone surprised, much less shocked, when Christopher Hitchens and I call for the prosecution of the pope, if he goes ahead with his proposed visit to Britain? The only strange thing about our proposal is that it had to come from us: where have the world's governments been all this time? Where is their moral fibre? Where is their commitment to treating everyone equally under the law?"
Do read this Dawkins article carefully.
See how he calls not for an investigation but - expressly - for a prosecution.
But see if you can identify under which actual offence Dawkins believes that Ratzinger should be prosecuted, as opposed to a general - and clearly deeply-felt - desire to have such a prosecution.
Dawkins does not identify any offence.
But it would appear that Dawkins wants to prosecute Ratzinger anyway.
One could almost say that the great thing about legal opinions like that is that we should safely ignore them.
For, as Church Mouse sets out in an excellent blogpost, there is not a criminal offence in respect of which there can be an arrest.
(The Heresiarch came to a similar conclusion.)
And in an outstanding piece of legal blogging, Dapo Akande sets out that even the "threshold" issue of whether Ratzinger as Head of State of Vatican can be prosecuted is an extremely difficult one to overcome.
One can sympathise with Dawkins - and also Geoffrey Robertson, who similarly fails to specify the actual offence under which he would like for Ratzinger to be prosecuted - that some grand gesture should be made in respect of Ratzinger's apparent role in all the vile abuses and cover-ups.
But just arresting and prosecuting Ratzinger for the sake of arresting and prosecuting him would, of course, be misconceived.
A more sensible and appropriately secular response to the unfolding scandals would be to insist that criminal investigations are commenced and allowed to run their course without regard to any special or privileged position of Roman Catholic clergy.
And the Roman Catholic clergy should co-operate fully and openly with these investigations.
The whole situation just needs to be thoroughly secularised.
If these investigations lead to there being sufficient evidence to arrest and charge any individual - including Ratzinger - such arrests and charges should be made.
Any attempt by Ratzinger or any other suspect to rely on the doctrine of sovereign immunity or some other privilege can then be squarely addressed.
There is always an impulse to use the coercive power of law as an aid in controversial issues: for example, alternative health practitioners sue for libel just as Christian Evangelicals used to try and bring blasphemy prosecutions.
But it is an impulse one really should resist.
Calling for the immediate arrest and trial of Ratzinger without any attempt whatsoever to identify the relevant offence strikes me as an illiberal and even discrediting exercise.
Instead, stripping the Roman Catholic church of any actual or imagined immunities and privileges, and insisting criminal investigations take their proper course, is the better position.
Then any consequent prosecutions and punishments will have a far sounder and resounding basis: a basis consisting of due process, the rule of law, and an entirely secular view of the world.
So should we arrest Ratzinger?
Yes, but only if that is where the operation of due process and the rule of law actually take the investigating and prosecuting authorities.
And, should this happen, then that really would be the "perp walk" to behold.
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Wednesday, 14 April 2010
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I could very well be wrong, but I had been assuming that the cover up of abuse was itself a crime, and Dawkins et al were hoping to charge the pope with that. I concede, though, that I never read that explicitly, it was just my assumption.
Well we definitely need to avoid turning Ratty into a martyr - after all we all know how much the RCs love them...
This should be turned into a mail merge to be used whenever someone says "there ought to be a law"
I was under the impression that they were looking to prosecute for "crimes against humanity".
Would this not work?
Perhaps not a perfect analogy...
If a friend is involved in a serious car accident that was clearly not his fault, I'd support his call for the other driver or other person thought responsible to be arrested, charged and prosecuted.
As a layman, I would have no clue as to what the actual charge might be, nor the legal process involved, but that would not stop me calling for the arrest of the person I saw as responsible.
I may well expect my friend to consult a lawyer to look at where he stood and to set out the options available to him.
Of course, none of this means that I wouldn't expect - or want - the law to take its normal course of action (whatever that was) no matter how strongly I felt about the accident and my friend, just that I would want to see some action taken.
I would fully expect an investigation, looking at all the evidence, to see if there was, indeed, evidence that an offence had actually been committed.
I'll need to re-read what Dawkins said, but isn't that all he is saying?
I am not a lawyer, but I understand that sometimes the directors of company which has been negligent in some way are prosecuted when this negligence has lead to an accident or death. I don't think the paedophile thing will fly (even less so having read this blogpost) but I have been wondering whether one could put together a case for prosecuting the Pope along the following lines:
The Pope is the head of an organisation which teaches that condoms should not be used for contraception, and that they are useless for preventing the transmission of STDs including AIDS. This is dangerous nonsense, but it seems fairly likely that people will have followed these teachings and consequently contracted (and died from) diseases which they may well not have caught had the church not lied to them about contraception. In short, there are people who were alive, who are now dead, but would be alive now had it not been for the actions of the church, and I wonder if one could therefore charge the church (ideally its director, the Pope) with some kind of criminal negligence?
[Sigh] Here we go again... [deep breath] I really don't know where evidence-based sceptics get this rather strange idea that canon law is a get-out-of-jail-free card, or that clergy cannot be tried in the secular courts. Maybe that was the case in 1273, but in the post-Tridentine period at least there has been nothing preventing collaboration with secular authorities, and indeed the current norms mandate such collaboration. In cases of delicta mixta, canonical trials are supplementary to proceedings of the civil authorities, for purposes of internal discipline.
That said, it's nice that you're reasoning this out on a legal basis, rather than taking the apparent default of "We don't like this guy, we'd like to see him arrested, doesn't matter what for." It may have been worth mentioning that these supposed legal immunities for clerics don't actually exist; and that the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association - a body which agrees with all the policies of the government and whose bishops are appointed by the Communist Party - is not a model of best practice.
@Ian M Scott
I would have thought that "crimes against humanity" is a bit vague for a criminal charge. It's a bit like how you aren't prosecuted for "crimes against the person" or "crimes against property" - you'd be prosecuted for "assault" or "theft" etc.
Given the stakes involved in criminal proceedings it's crucial to be precise about what you need to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
There is an allegation that Ratzinger himself signed off a letter to prevent an abusive priest being 'outed' in order to avoid scandal (although not in England and Wales, as far as I am aware). Surely this would amount to aiding and abetting a sexual offence?
@splinteredsunrise
Before you "[Sigh]" too soon, I think that many people believe that the Pope has sovereign immunity to UK prosecution due to his status as a visiting head of state. Nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned, and I'm not sure why you mentioned them as no one else seemed to.
However, this immunity might be flawed as apparently the Vatican was only declared a state by Mussolini and not officially recognised by international law.
[NB this isn't specifically about the Pope]
This whole business has made me realise I don't really know whether or when a 'cover up' of a crime is itself a crime, and I'd be curious to see you address the issue if possible.
For example, if we know about a crime, do we have any legal responsibility to report it?
What if we know or believe a crime is likely to happen in the future? Or we think it might happen - i.e. those priests who were moved to new parishes and offended again?
What about the case (or cases) where a child was asked to swear an oath not to report the crime? At what point does pressurising a victim not to approach the authorities become a crime?
And so on.
I guess generally, I don't know what kinds of criminal charges might apply for people in institutional positions generally — whether it's the Pope himself or other bishops and cardinals — as opposed to the sex offenders themselves.
@most of the above people: what you guys are saying is, I think, essentially what Jack said. There are allegations of a cover-up. These should be investigated. If evidence of wrong-doing is found, then charges should be brought (assuming the Head-of-State position does not prevent this).
A layperson may well demand that a negligent party be arrested. But the police would review the evidence presented, and determine if a crime had been committed.
The same principle applies here.
Is there a law in the UK that says it is illegal to suggest to people that they do something dangerous and tell them this is harmless?
For example is it illegal if I tell Jack to 'go run onto the road and see all the cars swerve around you.'
If this is illegal has the pope made any such speeches?
I’m inclined to agree with Daniel above that the head of an organization that deliberately spreads lies about condoms and HIV/AIDS should surely be culpable of some kind of corporate manslaughter charge.
More to the point, I think that despite the fact that Dawkins is—in his determination for an arrest despite little or no grounds for a charge—clearly indulging the kind of wishful thinking he is so scornful of in the religiously-minded, the campaign is a good thing anyway, simply because it might, possibly, succeed in making Ratzinger cancel his visit, for fear of a Tatchell-style citizen’s arrest attempt, other infringement if his papal majesty, or simply because of adverse press. This in itself would be a pretty good coup for secularism, keep our shores free of this theocratic hypocrite, and be middling to highly satisfying to watch them squirm out excuses into the bargain.
I couldn't help but feel gleeful and full of laughter at the very idea of having the Pope arrested. This was of course purely emotional, and rather childish. The symbolism of someone standing up to such an authority figure, when our own government hasn't the guts, was just great.
Therefore, I think it's important that at least somebody proposes the idea of arresting the Pope. To some, he's probably such an authority figure that the very notion is unthinkable. (Someone I know in Italy reports that he's on telly there telling everyone what to do all the time, which must get tedious/repressive/etc.)
But you are of course right, Jack - it's pointless to go after him without thinking it through. And just like you've said about Eady, there's no point scapegoating. There will surely be hundreds more at fault than the Pope is.
For those wondering, if anyone working with children hears an allegation of abuse, it's the law to report it immediately (at least here and in the US, I don't know about other countries). So I do want to know a lot more about that letter that he signed. But the business about AIDS and condoms and overpopulation is at least as worrying as this, and I wonder if anyone has the power to stand up to the Catholic Church on that sort of thing?
In fact there is a definition for "Crimes against humanity" in Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, but it would be difficult to fit there the conduct of Benedict -or that of the Catholic Church as an organisation (see art. 7).
Of course, the individuals guilty of abuses can and must be prosecuted under their national laws, and even Catholic National Conferences, if there are sound evidences that they hid those abuses. And the Pope himself, of course, if this is the case. But this is a very different matter that trying to the case to the International Court.
Even from my atheist POW I think that this is a deeply misconceived action: sincerely I think that would be dismissed by the Courts, and what's worse, probably many catholics will support the Pope against what they will see as an unfair attack. Moreover, it can distract the attention of people from the cases that keep appearing.
The current situation, with the constant trickle of new cases and the continuous errors of the Church, may wear it much more than this action. Lawsuits against the Church in various countries and in accordance with national laws (and not before the International Court) will do even more harm to the Church. And an action against Benedict himself, so well founded that he would be forced to hide behind his diplomatic inmunity would be perfect. But this initiative, as it is conceived, can even be a breath of air for the Catholic Church.
I am a great fan of both JackofKent and of Richard Dawkins. I am therefore faced with some difficulty given the criticism of Mr Dawkins presented here:)
The thing is - Richard Dawkins has not as I understand his writings "called for" "the unconditional arrest" of the pope.
He has however laid out possible criminal acts that Mr Ratzinger may have comitted in the past. He has suggested that these acts should be investigated and presented to the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service), that
alternatively a private prosecution should be considered, and that if the pope claims soverign immunity that a case could possibly be made that "crimes
against humanity" had been comitted where soverign immunity will not apply under (some or other) law.
Dear Jack, have your read Mr Dawkins statements?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/apr/13/pope-prosecution-dawkins
and also -
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5429
Mr Dawkins has also explicitly dissociated himself from the
original Guardian headline which he did not write.
Here is a quote from the guardian link above.
QUOTE
But it was Cardinal Ratzinger's official responsibility to determine the church's response to allegations of child sex abuse, and his letter in the Kiesle case makes the real motivation devastatingly explicit. Here are his actual words, translated from the Latin in the AP report:
"This court, although it regards the arguments presented in favour of removal in this case to be of grave significance, nevertheless deems it necessary to consider the good of the universal church together with that of the petitioner, and it is also unable to make light of the detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke with the community of Christ's faithful, particularly regarding the young age of the petitioner."
"The young age of the petitioner" refers to Kiesle, then aged 38, not the age of any of the boys he tied up and raped (11 and 13). It is completely clear that, together with a nod to the welfare of the "young" priest, Ratzinger's primary concern, and the reason he refused to unfrock Kiesle (who went on to re-offend) was "the good of the universal church"
END QUOTE
Why should a prosecution not be considered?
Richard Dawkins has clarified here:
http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,5415,Richard-Dawkins-I-will-arrest-Pope-Benedict-XVI,Marc-Horne----TimesOnline,page2#478580
"I am whole-heartedly behind the initiative by Geoffrey Robertson and Mark Stephens to mount a legal challenge to the Pope's proposed visit to Britain."
"Even if the Pope doesn't end up in the dock, and even if the Vatican doesn't cancel the visit, I am optimistic that we shall raise public consciousness to the point where the British government will find it very awkward indeed to go ahead with the Pope's visit, let alone pay for it."
That is to say, there are lawyers involved, who I presume would know what, if anything, the pope can be prosecuted for, given current evidence.
AndyN,
Assuming there is a crime for which the Pope can be charged, I think the correct procedure would be to see an exception made to Sovereign Immunity (as was done for the Sudanese President) rather than the much more shaky ground of claiming thatVatican City is not a sovereign state.
The Holy See is an observer at, though not a full member of, the United Nations, and though the Vatican cannot be an EU member, it is de facto part of the Schengen Area and mints its own euro coins.
The articles by G Robertson QC and Dawkins seem to deny that the Vatican City is sovereign on two grounds.
(see here) http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/apr/02/pope-legal-immunity-international-law
The first is that the Vatican/Holy See cannot be sovereign because it is not a full member of the UN.
The second is that the manner of the Vatican's (re)formation as a state was a unilateral declaration by Mussolini's Italy.
The first is suspect. There are pro-choice Catholic groups who tried to get the Holy See kicked out of the UN (it has never applied to be a member, but has been a permanent observer for decades), but no state supported the measure, and Resolution 58/314 (in 2004) re-affirmed that it has all rights of full members except to vote and present candidates.
If UN membership is used to denote sovereignty, one presumes that Robertson would have to alos deny the sovereignty of Taiwan (rejected in 2007), and that Switzerland wasn't a sovereign state until 2002.
This is silly. Sovereign states are recognised as such, under sovereign equality, by their fellow nations. 175+ countries recognise the Holy See (territorially bounded in the Vatican City) as a sovereign.
If Germany ceased to be a UN member, would it cease to be a sovereign state? Of course not. This is silliness.
The second part makes no more sense. The Vatican City state was founded, not unilaterally, but by a Treaty (meaning a legal agreement between two or more sovereign powers) between Italy and the Holy See. The Holy See was signatory to the Treaty *because* it was sovereign. It has signed treaties since, not least a Treaty in 2004 between the Holy See and the Slovak Republic.
Other sovereign states whose territorial space was first recognised by a bi-lateral treaty might include the United Kingdom (Act of Union between Scotland & England 1707), or to stretch the comparison even further, Poland (created by the Treaty of Versailles to which it wasn't even a sovereign signatory).
CONTINUED
The final section claims that the Pope's Sovereign Immunity "claim could be challenged successfully in the UK and in the European Court of Human Rights."
I'm somewhat confused by this, because he is not clear as to whether he is referring to the claim of diplomatic immunity and to the claim of statehood. The UK recognises the Holy See and has had full diplomatic relations since 1982. Does Robertson think that the Courts would take it upon themselves to overrule Parliament as to the diplomatic status of a foreign power? And what power would the ECHR have, administered as it is by the Council of Europe, to which the Holy See is merely an observer?
The ICC doesn't recognise the immunity of the head of state, but that wouldn't matter, because the Holy See is not a signatory of the Rome Statute. To bring charges against the Pope, either:
1) The Vatican would have to be declared a non-state by the ICC (in which case, the Pope is a citizen of Germany, and his crimes at the Vatican would have been committed in Italy)
OR
2) Charges would be limited to criminal activities by Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI when he was travelling outside of the Vatican (otherwise he is a citizen of the Vatican State - by passport - and he was doing wrong whilst in post at the Vatican, and the Holy See is not a signatory to the Rome Statute)
OR
3) The UN Security Council would have to resolve to send his case to the ICC
Unfortunately for Robertson, the ICC could almost certainly not take the case. Article 22 (part 2) demands that the definition of a crime "be strictly construed and shall not be extended by analogy" and "in case of ambiguity, the definition shall be interpreted in favour of the person being investigated". Whilst the seriousness of covering up child abuse cannot be denied, it is questionable as to whether it falls under "crimes against humanity"
The bigger problem is that the Rome Statute did not come into being until 1 July 2002, and no crime committed prior to that date can be prosecuted by the ICC. Unless Robertson has evidence of wrongdoing since 2002, there would be nothing the Pope could be tried for, even if the Holy See were not sovereign, the Vatican not a state, and the definition of crimes against humanity more generous.
I don't know whether the Pope is personally guilty of very serious crimes or not, but Robertson seems to have entered a fantasy land with this article, and it's concerning to see a QC be so cavalier with the law. Robertson redefining sovereign immunity reads like Yoo writing on Executive Power - if the legal terms don't permit what you want, stretch and redefine the terms until they do.
The Pope may be guilty of many things, but he cannot (and will not) be tried.
I think someone is missing the point (and that person may be me...) I didn't get the impression Dawkins thinks that the pope will get close to being arrrested. THe whole point was to try and do to provide a platform for a big campaign and hullabaloo that will raise awareness of the church's horrible attitude to decades of child-fucking, and that no-one really seems to be condemning (no-one in power at any rate).
So, to argue why he won't succeed (to me at any rate) is missing the whole point.
Listening to the radio, and reading newspapers, the whole affair fills me with such anger that child-fucking has been going on for decades in *any* institution with very little justice being done/seen to be done, I understand the position that Dawkins has taken. It's a pretty desperate measure, but with something this huge (that seems to go all the way to the top), it's tough to see how any justice can or will be done.
T
You mention that clergy should be treated the same as everyone else before the law. But in practice they seem to have a privilege rather similar to lawyers, namely people can make confessions to them and clergy are not bound to reveal those confessions.
I don't think Dawkins or Hitchens have any illusions about being able to arrest the Pope.
They are doing it the draw further attention to the facts (demonstrable, with a paper trail) that the man has actively covered up child sex abuse in the Catholic church, and consistently put the good of his church above the good of children.
It is beyond me how anyone can take any sort of moral guidance from the Pope and his henchmen.
Just as it galled every thinking person that Bush-Cheney denied all due process to those incarcerated in Gitmo (i.e. no specific charges brought against them, zero legal representation, no day in court etc. to say nothing of waterboarding), if we're being even-handed, then so, too, must the Pope, and anyone else suspected of these alleged crimes, be allowed that same due process.
In hindsight, that which makes geniuses of us all, and so that this doesn't take on the whiff of vendetta from two arch atheists (a defence the Church might now easily claim), it would have been better had the parents/guardians, of any allegedly abused children, brought this suit against the Pope and/or the Church - after all, you only have to look at precisely who is wanting to bring the suit: Richard 'The God Delusion' Dawkins and Christopher 'God is not Great' Hitchens - in other words, cui prodest.
Pederasts, paedophiles and child molesters, regardless of the colour of their robes (be they clerical or [Gary] glittered) all deserve to be tried under due process - it's the only way to prevent the ugly aspect of any Lord-of-the-Flies-esque, "Kill the pig!" mob/revenge mentality becoming acceptable or seeing any offenders tried in the media.
Geoffrey Robertson would like to test the limits of the definition of crimes against humanity, but he will have difficulty getting anything the pope is involved in to fit.
I poured a little bit of cold water on this in a comment over at RD.com. Now it's been pointed out above that there's even a provision saying that the definition should be strictly construed and not extended by analogy(!) the whole thing looks pretty hopeless. I hadn't picked up that point. Clearly, Robertson wants the definition to be read expansively, and there's no prospect of that. Thanks, Morus, for this and other powerful points.
Robertson is a clever guy and has a creative legal mind, but he's reaching.
What's the problem? Surely you can be arrested for failing to report a crime. There is documentary evidence for that. What are the police waiting for?
ivan said...
"You mention that clergy should be treated the same as everyone else before the law. But in practice they seem to have a privilege rather similar to lawyers, namely people can make confessions to them and clergy are not bound to reveal those confessions.
With one notable and salient difference: whereas secular legal counsel is prohibited, under pain of disbarment, from the disclosure of any client's 'confession' of a crime (under the guarantee of client/attorney privilege), in order that the person confessing to a priest might take and accept responsibility for their actions, a Catholic priest is duty-bound to try and persuade any person confessing a crime to hand themselves in to the proper authorities (i.e. in the case of a person confessing a crime [e.g. murder, rape etc.] under the seal of the confessional).
Of course, whether or not said person actually takes the priest's advice is solely down to the conscience, fibre and character of the individual in question.
Surely the issue here is one of jurisdiction. There would appear to be at least some justification for an investigation on a "Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice" (deliberate attempts by those in authority to hide serious offences should surely qualify).
Of course the problem with that is it is a common law offence in the UK (and several other countries) and is not going to be recognised by an international court.
Personally I have considerable issue with extraterritorial imposition of laws and, in this case. It would seem to me that it should be the law as it is applicable in the country where the alleged offence took place that should be used. Only in the most extreme breaches of international law, or where there is no viable local administration should there be any other intervantion. (Note that I'm talking of where the original offences took place - not the location where the person in authority made the decision from).
So, in principle, I think there is a possibly case worth investigating - if the offence had happened in the UK. That may, or may not, be the case in the particular regime.
"What's the problem? Surely you can be arrested for failing to report a crime. There is documentary evidence for that."
If you're referring to the Kiesle letter by Ratzinger, then no, there isn't. Kiesle had already been tried and convicted and the issue was whether or not to defrock him. The documentary evidence is that Ratzinger had knowledge of a crime that had not only already been reported but had already resulted in Kiesle being convicted. He was kept from parish work by his bishop in the meantime.
Mike from Ottawa
By my understanding of law, he can be prosecuted for crimes against humanity under the Rome Statute. The rape of children constitutes torture of children. Under the Rome Statute, Superiors are responsible for crimes of certain types by their subordinates when they exercise de facto control over others in a command hierarchy where they had the authority to stop the abuse and did not, and when they knew or should have known that the abuse was going to happen.
Article 28
Responsibility of commanders and other superiors
With respect to superior and subordinate relationships not described in paragraph (a), a superior shall be criminally responsible for crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court committed by subordinates under his or her effective authority and control, as a result of his or her failure to exercise control properly over such subordinates, where:
(i) The superior either knew, or consciously disregarded information which clearly indicated, that the subordinates were committing or about to commit such crimes;
(ii) The crimes concerned activities that were within the effective responsibility and control of the superior; and
(iii) The superior failed to take all necessary and reasonable measures within his or her power to prevent or repress their commission or to submit the matter to the competent authorities for investigation and prosecution.
I have blogged this with links to some of the relevant international agreements that the Holy See has signed.
http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/2010/04/i-call-goodwins-law.html
I see no difference between the Pope's actions and the actions of a military commander who allowed military personnel to rape non-combatants. He did have authority to stop it. He had authority to delay the de-frocking of a priest, he had the authority to accelerate it. He certainly had the ability to submit the matter to competent authorities as required by the Rome Statute and also the Optional Protocol on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography which the Holy See has signed.
http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_30204.html
Dawkins as atheist campaigner and Dawkins the biologist differ.
The biologist deals in fact, data and hypothesis, the atheist in opinion and publicity.
In his atheist writings and appearances, RD has often stressed the importance of "consciousness raising".
It's clear he views this stunt in that light- even if it gets nowhere legally, it's worth doing to make the point that just being a religious leader is no guarantee of automatic respect. Respect must be earned.
In the legal context, I bow to JoK's opinion- but one thing I've learned from BCA v Singh is that legal opinions vary even if there is no new evidence. Maybe Robinson can find a convincing argument.
Anyway, this promises to be fun.
Who's got the popcorn?
Dawkins as atheist campaigner and Dawkins the biologist differ.
The biologist deals in fact, data and hypothesis, the atheist in opinion and publicity.
In his atheist writings and appearances, RD has often stressed the importance of "consciousness raising".
It's clear he views this stunt in that light- even if it gets nowhere legally, it's worth doing to make the point that just being a religious leader is no guarantee of automatic respect. Respect must be earned.
In the legal context, I bow to JoK's opinion- but one thing I've learned from BCA v Singh is that legal opinions vary even if there is no new evidence. Maybe Robinson can find a convincing argument.
Anyway, this promises to be fun.
Who's got the popcorn?
Just judging from history, here's what we can predict the church leaders will do. Attack the accusersa nd deny deny deny all the way, regardless of the question of legality.
Then, if it ever gets to a true legal issue and or criminal prosecution, then they will hide behind the law and lawyers just as any mob member would. Don't expect any modeling of the character they expect the failthful to have. Honesty, integrity and responsibility sound great from the pulpit, but when it comes down to the real world, suddenly the church needs a team of lawyers.
"Alastair Macrae said...
Dawkins as atheist campaigner and Dawkins the biologist differ."
I would absolutely agree with this. My problem with that is we only listen to Professor Richard Dawkins because of the biology side of things and this is where he gets a position of authority from. Without the Oxford chair he's really just another author who doesn't like god very much.
It's really significant how little press Hitchens (just another author who doesn't like god very much?) is getting out of this despite the role he's playing in the plan.
I'm uncomfortable with the authority crossover of "good at science therefore good at religion" that a lot of atheist scientists have thrust on them.
I do wonder if Dawkins, a great zoologist, is to atheism what Chomsky, a great linguistic philosopher, is to politics?
Does the authority really carry over?
With regard to labelling the offences 'crimes against humanity' I think people need to be very careful as to the precise meaning of the term. Ill-informed people banding the term about will only serve to weaken the concept of the crime.
I think Stephen ("Without the Oxford chair he's really just another author who doesn't like god very much") and JofK are missing the perspective a bit.
Dawkins magnum opus has been about evolution - and making its insights available through works of "popular science".
As such, his subject (and its education) is a direct target of the politically powerful religious groupings especially in the US, who don't like seeing an unemployed god.
Therefore, it makes perfect sense to me that he not only defends it, but goes on the counterattack.
No parallel to Chomsky there.
Watch the interview: http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5442
Nothing to disagree with, really. Especially his explicit deferral to legal opinion.
I'm not talking about the logic in Dawkins getting the boot into religion - religious groups have certainly got the boot into him. What I'm not sure about is his authority to speak about religious matters from a biology background. Chomsky is a good example of someone who writes authoritatively on multiple fields (although I would suggest that Chomsky had a bit of help in that the fields have some sort of bleed over). Whereas if I wanted to talk about climate science from a law background I'd be really pretty ignorable because, you know, I'm not an expert on climate science. I think I have reasonably good legal opinions but I'm just another guy with his two cents when it comes to climate change.
You're very modest: but I'm sure you wouldn't have any reservations about lack of religious knowledge if asked to give an opinion on an area where religious belief impacted the real world? Try:
- shall we deny condoms to all these Africans?
- shall I fly this plane into that building?
- shall we burn that man because of what he thinks?
The "you have to be an expert to give an opinion" angle is nicely summarized here: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_courtiers_reply.php
Climate science, unlike religion, is (despite efforts to the contrary!) based on falsifiable hypotheses, so I'd be with you on the "two cents" there.
Well, I know nothing about law but this aspect has been raised a couple of the previous comments:
I understand that many of the child-victims who were raped were 'encouraged' (under threat of excommunication, ie, an eternity of burning in fire) to swear themselves to silence about the abuses they had suffered.
Ratzinger was in charge of the Doctrine of Faith henchmen who enforced this.
Was Ratzinger not at least complicit in the (aggravated) perversion of the course of justice by approving of these gagging methods?
I believe he should at least be invited to Paddington Police Station for questioning. Further action could be taken depending on Ratzinger's responses, or if there was deemed to be sufficient other evidence.
Someone who expresses such profound sorrow at what his department oversaw should at least make this small concession.
And surely, Ratzinger as Pope should now unequivocally recind the threats of excommunication his department made to gag these poor children?
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